Susan Classen-Sullivan

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Connecting. Okay, so it’s happening now. Right?

Rachel McNamara
Oh, hello, Susan.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Hello, hello.

Rachel McNamara
Okay, let’s begin our interview.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
All right.

Rachel McNamara
Question one: How, if at all, has the pandemic affected your work?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Well, it has. And, you know, it’s hard to know fully how but I do know that there has been a lot more failure. With the work like, to realize a piece, there’s been more iterations before I got to the place where I could accept it. So some of the failures were I just wasn’t satisfied with what the work was communicating, some of the failures were technical things were falling apart and going back into it to be remade. And I, I, I think that that, in part, is because of a certain level of distraction that the pandemic has brought in terms of, you know, worry, and I’m not alone, you know, everyone, I think, has some level of that. So, but I think that that has taken a little bit of my attention away. So it’s taken longer to sort of focus in and sort of sharpen the sword to be able to realize the work. But you know, that’s okay. Maybe it’s being the work too. I’m not sure.

Rachel McNamara
Maybe having more time with it, too, is helpful but hurtful in some ways, too.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Um, not for me. For me, I mean, more time is really, more time is a really good thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, for me, it isn’t more, you know, I think more time with oneself can be a little crazy, but more time with the work for me is is always good.

Rachel McNamara
Good. Okay. Do you have certain requirements for making your work physically, or in terms of your own state of mind?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Well, having a space and a space, with a high level of isolation, is really helpful to me because I can more easily put out the other aspects of my responsibilities, you know, and I can focus fully on the work. So that’s really helpful. And state of mind, you know, like, time in the studio, my state of mind because I’m human, really fluctuates. And, yeah, like, I can’t, it’s not like I go into the workspace and every time I’m there, it’s fully, you know, fully present, fully engaged with the work, so. But I have to make the work regardless, I mean, I have to be involved with the work regardless of where that state of mind is, but it’s wonderful when I can, you know, simply create that space and be in the space and be there with the work.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, yeah. I find that too. Um, do you have a specific studio work routine in terms of the time of day or the number of days you go to a studio?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Well, I, I, that fluctuates some somewhat, and depending on what time of year it is, you know, my teaching schedule, in the summer, I have been more free to, you know, be with the work for extended periods, every day of the week. Whereas with the, when I’m engaged with teaching, you know, it’s more more limited. But I do touch my work every day in some way. I feel that’s really important, that it needs to be tended to, and I mean, engaged with it. So, and you know, it calls me, so.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
But amount of time varies with other life responsibilities.

Rachel McNamara
Sounds like a nice, nice practice developed, just touching work every day.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yeah, a lot of ways to touch it too. I mean, you touch it with your hands to, you know, tend to it. You touch it with your mind, you touch it with your attention and your focus and that kind of thing.

Rachel McNamara
Mmhmm. Okay, is there a general or specific system you use in developing your work, a process you follow?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Generally what happens, and I don’t think this is unique to me, like, I’m, I’m working on a piece, and at some point during the making process, another piece starts to develop sort of that, you know, it’s, you know, the seed of it is like, embedded in that piece that I’m working on. And then over time, it starts to develop, and I’ll do drawings, while I’m finishing that, that current piece and, and, you know, give some of my focus to it. And then by the time I’m done with the one I’m working on, I’m ready to begin the planning, and sort of knowing, knowing the piece has developed and I’m ready to go. There are other times where, like, I, you know, I, I start a new series, and then the, then the leap is a little greater, and a little more precarious in terms of knowing whether the steps I’m taking are correct. And that takes a little longer, longer to evolve. And it usually is related to, I’ll find myself like paying attention to something. And, you know, allowing that to kind of grow, whatever it is, whether it’s a tongue or a dog, or, you know, I’ll develop it through drawings, and then realize it three dimensionally.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, because it does, I was wondering how, how long you usually work on a piece for because clay has its own limitations, so…

Susan Classen-Sullivan
It does, it’s like, you know, it tells you exactly what it needs and when it needs it. And that, the time really, it, um, it depends on the piece. Like I finished a piece recently, or fairly recently, you’ve got to have eyes in the back of your head. And should I show a picture of that?

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, if you’ve got one handy.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
I think I do. Well, I can show a detail. Wait a minute. I might not be doing that correctly. Wait a minute. That’s not it. Let me…oh, can you see this piece right here?

Rachel McNamara
Yes.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
This little girl?

Rachel McNamara
Uh-huh.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Oh, me get rid of this. Get rid of that. Well, that’s a detail. That’s a detail of the piece. And that piece took, it took like a year to make because it was a new forming technique. There were these technical issues that I had to address. So, and some of it happened during the pandemic. So again, that may have played a part. So it took a number of attempts to finally get that realized, but when I’m working in more familiar forming techniques, you know, it depends on the piece. It could take three months, it could take six months, depending on size and complexity. To say like, clay, you can’t rush it. You have to learn why and all of that, and then the firing. So yeah, like, you know, it’s like, it’s like anything you give it what it needs.

Rachel McNamara
Yes. Okay. What criteria do you use in evaluating your work during the making process? Are there any guidelines that direct what you will and will not accept?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yeah. I um, I’ve had this experience of working on a series of pieces. I’m thinking right now of these very early figurative sculptures, they’re about three feet tall, and they were all in sort of abstraction interrelated. And I was making those for a while and really excited about them and engaged with them. And then I made one and it was really easy to make, like I could make it look good. I had learned through a series of making like eight of them that I knew sort of what I was doing. And so when I made that last one, which I (audio cuts out)

I was making something that already existed, and it wasn’t a discovery, I wasn’t bringing anything new into the world. And so I had to stop with that series and, and find what, you know, sort of what I should be making. So that’s, that’s something that, that a criteria that I have that I have to be creating something that I haven’t discovered before. And then when I’m in the process of making something and sort of analyzing it, critiquing it, and the work will kind of tell me what I’m doing wrong and what I’m doing writing. And I try to listen carefully. And if I’ve done something to a piece that sort of is, was expected or easy and it doesn’t have any life to it, then it has to be taken apart and redone or adjusted.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, listening to the piece seems like an important skill to hone, as an artist.

Do you do that?

I try. Sometimes, well, I know when I’m not listening. And then that’s when you get something you’re like, “What?” Not special, something not special.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Exactly. Better put than I put it. Exactly. I can tell from your work that you’re a really good listener. And it’s almost like, it’s almost like, you know, like you have to get into this kind of groundless space, and just, you know, really pay attention and let the work be the guy like the worker, tell you what to do, instead of you trying to muscle it into something that you think it should be. Right?

Rachel McNamara
Yes, yes. Very much so. Okay, are there things you do outside of your art making process, that practice, that support your work?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yes, there are…

Rachel McNamara
What else do you do?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
I run. And each day, and I walk, and I sit still, you know, each of those activities I do for a certain amount of time every day. And it helps me sort of still my mind a bit and be able to focus, have some semblance of balance. Also, my relationships with my family, you know, is really one of the things that supports the work, teaches me a lot about the human heart. And that’s essential to being able to realize anything. And also my relationships with other artists, their work, and, and my conversations with them is really uplifting and sustaining. So I think those things feed the work, definitely.

Rachel McNamara
I see that. I can see that.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Right?

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, yeah. Those are like the essence of life. So if you’re not tapping into that…

Susan Classen-Sullivan
You’re really lucky if you have those.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Especially now.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
For sure.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. What are the greatest challenges you face as an artist?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
You know, yeah, no, I’m, I, I have a place to work. I have a warm home, and wonderful family. I have, you know, all these – great job, all these wonderful things. So, um, you know, making work is, is, you know, it’s rigorous, and it takes a lot of commitment. And, and, and the, and you know, you have to be willing to not have a lot of pastimes, you know, sort of hobbies because you can’t leave time for that. But challenges or sacrifices. I, I, you know, there are people who, who can’t make work because, you know, they don’t have the space to do it or money to do it. So I can’t really complain. And I also think that it’s probably the people around artists who are more challenged than the artists because they, you know, require having so much time with their work it takes away from these other parts of relationships.

Rachel McNamara
True. True. And, but the artist also has, most most of the time, sometimes they don’t, an awareness of that, of their loved ones and friends who are maybe missing them more just, you know.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Do say that because you think artists have to have a more acute, or generally do have a more acute sensitivity to their environments, or?

Rachel McNamara
I think that… I think that that no like (audio cuts out) then response to what you said, right? That the, the people surrounding artists are often the ones who are challenged more than the artists themselves because of the sacrifices maybe they make. So if I’m not, you know, walking my dog because I’m in the studio, is that a sacrifice I made? Or is that a sacrifice he’s making unknowingly?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yeah.

Rachel McNamara
It’s a missing I guess, sometimes you miss things. Like a pastime too, like, I could go, well, no one’s really doing anything now but, you know, going out to dinner or going out to just hang out. Like, you know, some friends might be doing but it’s important to be at the studio and to make that work because not going to get done if you’re not there.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
You’re the only one that can do it. And it becomes more complex, I think ,when you have a family.

Rachel McNamara
Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Oh, well, that’s kind of like the next question. Are there sacrifices you’ve had to make to pursue your work?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
I… I think now, I think that we’ve probably covered that. Okay.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. Here’s a good one. What are the rewards?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Having a, having something, you know, like, creating meaning and a life, like, having something that I do that I feel helps me understand the world, connects me with it. And, you know, that I think, is meaningful. Like, when I’m making work, I feel like I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing. And that’s a pretty satisfying feeling. And, and not a common one, I don’t think. Like to feel really deeply that what you’re engaged in is exactly what you should be engaged in. And then I get to, and then I get to, you know, have this incredible freedom. Not without discipline, of course, but this freedom to create and explore whatever I want. I, you know, it’s still kind of stuns me that I’m able to do that. Because you don’t have that in many aspects of your life, right?

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. No. That is a reward, for sure. Can you speak briefly about the work you’re presently involved with?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Well, I have the, that eyes in the back of your head piece. That I feel like, maybe I should show that, Rachel.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. That showed in a very interesting gallery format as well, right?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Um, wait a minute. Okay. I probably should have had this prepared. I apologize.

Um… Let me do one more thing.

I’m just pulling up my website so I can show a work there. Okay.

Okay, so this piece. Are you seeing the eyes in the back of your head?

Rachel McNamara
Uh huh. Uh huh. It’s kind of in the middle of your computer screen, though.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Oh.

Rachel McNamara
Like you can make it full size?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
She says, with some certainty. How about that?

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, that’s better.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
That’s better. Okay, so this piece was fairly recently finished. And, surprisingly enough, you know, I started being interested in, in, in tongues because they are the place where we kind of interact with the world in an interesting way. And we bring things in, and we taste them. And there, it’s also a really vulnerable part of the body. And so I created that piece. And then…can you see this now?

Rachel McNamara
Yeah.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Okay.

And then it moved into this piece, which is fish out of water, where I, you know, it’s like four feet tall and it’s from the floor. And I just sort of took the tongue from that piece, and, you know, wanted to explore it further. And then this idea of goldfish feeding off the tongue, and its wetness, I found interesting and sort of taking them out of their usual environment and revealing, like, their vulnerability when they’re outside of that, you know, because if you take something outside of its environment, it doesn’t have what it needs. Just like, you know, things that are happening. I’m not a political artist, but, but you know, things that are happening environmentally. We’re all fish out of water right now.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, we are.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
So that’s what that’s what I’m involved in. And I’m also just working on a piece now, third iteration of a ballerina, a type of ballerina.

Rachel McNamara
Hmm.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
We’ll see where that, we’ll see where that goes.

Rachel McNamara
Do you, um, do you come up with the titles sometimes before you make pieces? Because they seem so fitted to one another that, or do they like, form with the piece as you’re making it?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
The piece like, as, when, it usually happens when the pieces are very close to completion. And, you know, it, It just comes to me. Like the piece tells me what it wants to be called, then you know, you can feel it when it’s right. So tricky.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, they are.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
They can be like, yeah, can’t find it. Or if it doesn’t find me, then I just don’t title it.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. And then it’s like wrong when you have a piece and you’re, you’re done with it. And you’re like, “What are you titled?”, and you come up with like, eight different titles, and then you feel like, it’s, you can’t go with any title at all from that point. Because it didn’t make up its mind.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yeah, I’ve had definitely had that experience. And like, I really don’t like titles that tell the viewer what to think. Because they could really make the work small.

Rachel McNamara
Mmhmm.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
And, um, you know, it’s, it usually has multiple conceptual components, so.

Rachel McNamara
Titles are fun. And not fun sometimes, too. Okay. Um, is there any advice you would give to students starting out their art careers?

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yes. Do what’s right for you, but I would recommend taking care of yourself. And I would recommend eating right, exercising and getting enough sleep. I know that that sounds like a mom or something. I am a mom. But I really think it’s essential because you have to, you have to take care of your, yourself to be able to make the work and there’s this, you know, there’s a sort of myth out there that artists are, you know, we’re out there staying up all night drinking and drugging and, you know, because that’s how we make our work. And the reality is that the artists who I know who are committed and you know, making work and meaningful work, they they do all these things, you know, they exercise, they take care of themselves, in part to make sure that they’re capable of making the work. I think I think the other thing that I would suggest is to, if you’re with your work and you’re feeling like you’re involved in a practice, and you’re, and you’re feeling sheltered by it, or comforted by it, like for an extended period, I would say, step outside of that, and try something that you’re not comfortable with. And take some risks. Because you don’t want to be duplicating yourself. You want to be Yeah, finding, finding something new. And yeah. Yeah, don’t, don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to try something new. To risk, to risk everything, you know, like to risk the peace fully that you’re working on, to realize something meaningful. And, yeah, like, your studio can be, like your studio, where, like your studio space, it can be a corner in a room, doesn’t matter where the space is. And that can be the space where you most want to be, and also the space where it’s most difficult to be. And both those things are good. You know, you’re not in the wrong place in either of those. And you can, and you can, you can get it done. I think that’s it. Take care of yourself. Also take care of the people around you.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah, that’s important. Very much so. I think that’s good advice for everybody in general.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Yeah.

Rachel McNamara
Yeah. Well, that’s the last question on my list.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Rachel, it was so nice talking.

Rachel McNamara
It was nice to talk to you.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Even though I was the subject. So it was a little weird, but um, you know, it’s always wonderful to see you.

Rachel McNamara
It’s great to see you, too. It’s been so long.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
I know. I hope we can spend time together in person.

Rachel McNamara
Me too.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Not too long in the future. In the meantime, take care of yourself, all right?

Rachel McNamara
Okay, I will. You too.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
All right. We’ll be in touch.

Rachel McNamara
Okay.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Bye, Rachel!

Rachel McNamara
Bye, Susan.

Susan Classen-Sullivan
Okay.